Rose's picture

What is this tree?

Observed: 24th November 2012 By: RoseRose’s reputation in PlantsRose’s reputation in PlantsRose’s reputation in Plants
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Description:

I have a few ideas but am very interested to see what others think.

Identifications
Species interactions

No interactions present.

Comments

Rose's picture

What Elm?

Hi Rachey Ramon – I’m thinking smoothed leaf or Huntingdon, and have added my suggestions in now. I will be very interested to see what other people think as well. Thanks for kicking off the debate!

Rose

martinjohnbishop's picture

iSpot describes this as

Huntingdon Elm (Ulmus glabra x minor = U. x vegeta)
Stace gives your designation (above) as a synonym

Rachy Ramone's picture

It would have been more helpful, Rose...

...if you had put up either an ID or a comment saying that you thought it likely to be either Smooth-leaved or Huntingdon "because of the leaf having a distinct pointed tip", or whatever other reasons you may have had.

You don't lose points for putting up an ID that proves to be wrong, you know.

If you were very unsure, and wanted to see what others thought, then you might have waited for more than one ID to arrive before putting up your own.

I now feel that mine is wrong, and I am sorry that mine "trumps" yours, until such time as someone else agrees with one of yours, or puts up something else.

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

chrisbrooks's picture

Shieldbug

And a surprise appearance from a Shieldbug as well. Sorry can't help with the tree ID.

Edit - Sorry I should have added that it appears to be a Hawthorn Shieldbug.

Rachy Ramone's picture

Hah, I spotted that...

...little shieldbug, and refrained from commenting in a cowardly way, as I wasn't at all sure what type of shield bug it was!

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

Rachy Ramone's picture

Now I sound like a cross-patch...

...as my "comment" was written after Rose put up her IDs but before she made her kind comment!

Sorry, Rose!

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

Rachy Ramone's picture

Petiole length...

....for Huntingdon Elm is described as "more than 5mm long" and, despite the interruption of your friendly little shield-bug, it does not appear to be that long.

So on balance, I would say it's more likely to be Smooth-leaved Elm.

Of course, they are all subject to hybridisation....

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

Rose's picture

I’m Sorry Rachey Ramon,

I’m Sorry Rachey Ramon, didn’t intend to offend or upset you. :-)
I know I don’t lose points, but I don’t see this as a competition but a discussion (but I understand some people do have a competitive streak when it comes to ID! ;-)
I have been discussing it with some colleague in my department, and we only just whittled it down and so I added the 2 possible suggestions we have come up with…..
I had no idea myself! And I am still very unsure even after discussing it.
I have sent the photos onto some other organisations as well (Elm project and my local WT colleagues).
p.s.
I think Its a Hawthorn Shield bug, who snuck in on the action!

Rose

Rachy Ramone's picture

Hawthorn Shield bug? *wide eyes*

See, I'm impressed that you know what type of bug it is!

Don't worry, I'm not upset, there is an inevitable delay between typing and uploading a comment (especially when the person waffles on as much as I do) which means people sometimes post IDs, comments, etc in the meantime.

And in this case, I admit it, I kinda wanted to be first with an ID. *blushes and hangs head in shame*

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

Rachy Ramone's picture

Errr, by which I mean...

....that I should have looked a little more carefully at the leaves.

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

Rose's picture

I really am appreciating your

I really am appreciating your suggestions and ideas and reasons (like I said I just don’t know). I do have some more photos I could add on of more leafs with ruler, might this help you?
Glad your impressed with my bug ID ;-)

Rose

Rachy Ramone's picture

OOh, more photos!

Well, it's always a good idea to put as many photos as reasonably possibly, although I do think that you chose a very good selection (ie tree, bark, twig, leaf, leaf-with-ruler), and I don't think anyone could ask for more.

Maybe best to hang on to see what others think, and to see how the "voting" goes.

I'm off out now, I'll look forward to checking in tomorrow to see the results!

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

martinjohnbishop's picture

Stace says: "an extremely

Stace says: "an extremely difficult genus"
Pedicel length - no information
Rust coloured hairs on buds? I do not see any (just pixels).
Leaf length x width; leaf size > 70 mm (yes)
Leaf width/length ; acuminate apex to leaf
Number of pairs of lateral veins
Tree outline branches strong at all levels (yes)

I came to no clear conclusion except "an extremely difficult genus".

Rose's picture

"an extremely difficult genus".

i agree "an extremely difficult genus".

Thanks for the comments: What Elm are these ID features for that you mention above?
I will look into the hairs on buds.

Rose

martinjohnbishop's picture

Stace p. 281

These are some of the characters in the key given by Stace.
I could not follow it to a successful conclusion with your observation.
Important point: "Only leaves from the middle of shoots in high summer should be used". This may explain the difficulty.

Rose's picture

one for the summer....

Ahhhh right ok then – I was just thinking this might be one to follow up again in the summer! Thanks.

Rose

Jonathan's picture

No one has mentioned the

No one has mentioned the extraordinary fact that this is a BIG elm! THese are so rare nowadays except in Sussex (I believe). How has it escaped Dutch elm disease?

Jonathan
University of Edinburgh and Biodiversity Observatory (OU)

Rose's picture

huge tree

HI Jonathan, it really is a huge tree. The county recorder is coming out to take a look at it this year when it gets into leaf, so hopefully we get a positive ID . We do have a few of them around the county of this size.
I was discussing with someone about all the large elms appear to be covered in a lot of ivy, who knows perhaps the ivy turns the elm bark beetle off……

Rose

Jonathan's picture

Wouldn't that be interesting

Wouldn't that be interesting if it were true!

Jonathan
University of Edinburgh and Biodiversity Observatory (OU)

martinjohnbishop's picture

Large Elm at Bourn is ivy covered

Does not prove the point but at least a start ...
http://www.ispot.org.uk/node/320055
Martin

Jonathan's picture

Another one. How interesting.

Another one. How interesting. Of course we do not know whether the elms that died were not covered in ivy. A lot of hedgerow trees would be. Unless someone tested this idea when elm disease struck,I don't think it can be tested now.

Jonathan
University of Edinburgh and Biodiversity Observatory (OU)

Rachy Ramone's picture

Elms and Ivy

This probably doesn't help in this case, but one of my gardens has a row of middle-aged Elms on the boundary, all now dead or dying, and all smothered in ivy.

In their case, ivy has certainly not been any sort of protection.

It does, however, disguise the fact that they are dead until they are utterly dead: and then the weight of the ivy foliage helps them fall over. At which point I have to clear up the mess...

Oh, and they are all still sending up suckers for some distance around, so we have plenty of small elms. All in the wrong place, of course!

Rachy Ramone

How to take close-ups with cheap phone and hand-lens:
http://tree-and-shrub-id.blogspot.co.uk/p/how-to-close-ups.html
Field Guides for Budding Botanists:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B01A8YB0WY

Rose's picture

Huntingdon elm

The Northamptonshire County Recorder came out last week and took a look at this tree and has identified the tree as Huntingdon elm

Rose

Jonathan's picture

A definitive ID. Great. Now

A definitive ID. Great. Now you can add it to Treezilla! http://www.Treezilla.org or via the Treezilla Android and iPhone apps

See http://www.ispot.org.uk/Treezilla

Jonathan
University of Edinburgh and Biodiversity Observatory (OU)

martinjohnbishop's picture

Rose was right

Which is nice to know.
Martin