nightfly's picture

Which tree?

Observed: 10th October 2012 By: nightflynightfly’s reputation in Plantsnightfly’s reputation in Plantsnightfly’s reputation in Plants
10 Oct 12 (25)
10 Oct 12 (27)
10 Oct 12 (28)
Description:

Growing in a damp corner beside a river. Leaves staggered on long thin branches.

Identifications
Species interactions

No interactions present.

Species with which Elm (Ulmus sp.) interacts

Comments

Mark at Magdalen's picture

Sorry - mine was in error

Sorry - mine was in error

lavateraguy's picture

Scale

This presumably is a case where an indication of scale would have helped.

nightfly's picture

Hi,I will do some measuring

Hi,

I will do some measuring and edit in due course, will measurements of the leaves be sufficieht?

Cathal.

lavateraguy's picture

The oblique bases to the

The oblique bases to the leaves should be enough to identify it as Ulmus (or Tilia, but that has palmate venation), but if a leaf size (about 3 inches long?) had been mentioned an identification as Betula pubescens (leaves about 1 inch long), presumably from the shape, texture and toothing, wouldn't have been made.

nightfly's picture

These leaves are 2-3 inches

These leaves are 2-3 inches in size. I do remember years ago noting that the above configuration of leaves on a twig (assymetrical) was a feature of elm. Thanks again for your help.

Cathal.

martinjohnbishop's picture

According to Stace p. 281 the

According to Stace p. 281 the ratio of leaf length to width would help to distinguish the two taxa mentioned above. Not sure from these pictures because top left look longer than wide and bottom right do not. Maybe the angle?

nightfly's picture

I will be back at that spot

I will be back at that spot in the near future as I am looking for a particular caterpillar and I will do some measuring and sampling. I found a really good Early Thorn caterpillar on this Elm.

Yeah its the angle in the first pic, the twig was drooping vertically but the leaves were trying to be horizontal.

Cathal.

stephenmid's picture

ID

I don't think that it is Huntingdon's Elm as my book says that the first vein on the short side of the leaf should be exposed.

stephenmid

lavateraguy's picture

ID

The number of pairs of secondary veins does seem to match Dutch Elm (9-14 pairs) fide Poland, rather than Huntingdon Elm (12-18 pairs). Poland also says that some twigs of Dutch Elm are corky-winged.

What does it mean to say "the first vein on the short side of the leaf should be exposed"?

It's not Ulmus glabra ssp. glabra; I don't think it's ssp. montana, but considering the location that would be a possibility.

nightfly's picture

What is the significance of

What is the significance of ssp.montana in this case Lavateraguy? I would get some good daylight pics but I would need a water proof camera today!

Cathal.

lavateraguy's picture

ssp. montana

is a form of Ulmus glabra commoner in the north and west, which has narrower leaves that ssp. glabra. Someone (like me) only familar with ssp. glabra might not recognise ssp. montana as being Ulmus glabra and misidentify it as one of the hybrids.

nightfly's picture

Ok cheers.

Ok cheers.

Cathal.

stephenmid's picture

Vein exposed

What it means is that the bottom part of the leaf on that side is composed of vein material rather that the green leaf part. i.e. there is no green part below the last vein.

stephenmid