ChrisMcA's picture

Sponge99

Observed: 11th April 2012 By: ChrisMcAChrisMcA is knowledgeable about InvertebratesChrisMcA’s earned reputation in InvertebratesChrisMcA’s earned reputation in InvertebratesChrisMcA’s earned reputation in InvertebratesChrisMcA’s earned reputation in Invertebrates
Sponge99
hymeniacidon242
hymeniacidon197
Description:
Identifications
  • Hymeniacidon
    Confidence: I'm as sure as I can be.
  • Breadcrumb sponge (Halichondria panicea)
    Confidence: It's likely to be this, but I can't be certain.
  •  
    Likely ID
    Hymeniacidon perlevis
    Confidence: I'm as sure as I can be.
    ID agreements (): 2 People
    • Nick UptonNick Upton’s reputation in InvertebratesNick Upton’s reputation in InvertebratesNick Upton’s reputation in InvertebratesNick Upton’s reputation in Invertebrates
    • dejayM
      Biological Recording In ScotlandHighland Biological Recording GroupOrkney Biodiversity Records Centre
      dejayM’s reputation in InvertebratesdejayM’s reputation in InvertebratesdejayM’s reputation in InvertebratesdejayM’s reputation in Invertebrates
Species interactions

No interactions present.

Comments

Nick Upton's picture

sponges

With the extra photos, details and smell test detective work, I think you're right on this. Both are extremely variable in form (depending on exposure) and colour, and H. panicea can be orange and I've often seen that form, complete with distinctive volcanos - one pic here: http://www.talktalk.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/wildlife/invertebrates... , but you've convinced me!

Nick Upton, naturalist and photographer.

ChrisMcA's picture

I'm really delighted you

I'm really delighted you agree on the identification; & I agree on variability of form (eg granular pic of panicea in wikipedia; & perlevis sometimes smooth); I hadn't even got to it's prevalence along the gower, certainly to Oxwich; & liking silty conditions. I was a bit surprised by the talktalk picture ref & much more that you've often seen orange paniceas! On talktalk yes it says ..often bright orange, sometimes greenish brown, but surely the picture is yellow?. Collins 'Complete Brit.Wildlife' p.222 has exactly same pic & same text. On your sightings -surely a photo is called for next time! (even maybe a sample), & were they onshore/not etc?....
EVIDENCE FOR ORANGE PANICEA a)text I've found, in the 6 ident'n sites texts (+EOL w.new photos),orange occurs 3 times, http://species-identification.org/species.php?species_group=sponges&id=244 "light orange-yellow", http://www.marlin.ac.uk/speciesfullreview.php?speciesID=3438# "orange-yellow" & http://www.european-marine-life.org/02/halichondria-panicea.php "orange-yellow" but adds an algae gives it a green colour/ more rarely a reddish brown.

Nick Upton's picture

orange or yellowy orange

I think it depends on your definition of orange! Mine may include what you're calling yellow. Also not all computer screens show colours the same, though mine is calibrated regularly, and colours in photos are affected by lighting conditions and processing so can be misleading anyway. I do know that I have seen many panicea colonies that I call orange, and used to do coastal research (on crustaceans) on many rocky shores around the UK, but didn't carry a camera in the past so have no images I can post to convince you, but I will get some photos next time I get the chance!

Nick Upton, naturalist and photographer.

ChrisMcA's picture

Maybe orange-yellow afer all

(must include Collins Seashore of Brit & Europe, wh.descries H.pan as variable;most often green or orange).
Just visited Oxwich & saw What may have been panicea (but not classic volcanos), & more orange than talktalk one but less than eg orange juice, but beaten by the tide from testing it.

gramandy's picture

colour and even shape cannot...

...guarantee, what your sp is. The only real way of determining these guys is by spicule examination.

take a look at

http://www.ispot.org.uk/node/320357

and compare to

http://www.habitas.org.uk/marinelife/sponge_guide/

I hadn't expected the appearance to be so dramatically different between my pic and habitas pic. My ID (based from pics in habitas and the descriptions and my own as below) wasn't even close (can't remember now but the spikiness pulled me from the description in habitas) for this based on smell, texture, appearance, spikiness, colour and other internet searches. I have decided there is no way of IDing without this spicule test. I think the sponges vary so much that any picture isn't enough (with the exception of maybe suberites, pseudosuberites or some of the non encrusters). I hadn't expected the appearance to be so dramatically different between my pic and habitas pic.

So sorry Chris, I will abstain from this one, having got my fingers so severely burnt on many of my tidal pool sponges. I could even see your first pic being similar to the Mycale I found (which is verified by spicule ID microscopically). Pic 2 may even be a different sp again.

I can, however, verify your seaweed in pic 2 as Osmundea pinnatifida - pepper dulse.

ChrisMcA's picture

I appreciate you're

I appreciate your difficulty in ID'g sponges & warning about the general difficulty (that most need microscopic examination). The shape can be dramatically effected by location, & I'd guess your example was subject to strong currents. Many of the photos of H.perleve eg are subtidal where they are pink. But I believe H.p is often identifyable particularly when it's orange & so high onshore etc etc (there's a well defined level all round the Gower with this orange/red sponge).

gramandy's picture

to be honest...

....Chris - it would have been protected from any strong current as it was on the east side of a tidal pool (surrounded on all four sides by wall) :)

ChrisMcA's picture

Sorry Gramandy, my mistake I

Sorry Gramandy, my mistake I guess.

gramandy's picture

Hi Chris...

....no sweat - thanks for your agreement to Mycale sponge - just realised my original ID is still there of course and it was Paratimea constellata. If you look at this in the sponges of Britain & Ireland with it's description (habitas) - you might see why I thought it was this (I was almost convinced in fact) - all the parameters were right. So only the spicule data let me down, but this is the definitive, hence my allergy to agree with anything that is an encrusting sponge. However I did get my Dysidea right - which was also confirmed by spicule analysis. Thank goodness that some sponges look similar (and have the right characteristics without completely pulling it to bits) in the internet postings (even looked similar in habitas).

Graham

dejayM's picture

Tag?

A nice observation with a delightful comment trail, full of useful links and advice.
Please Chris, consider adding the Tag ProjectM1 so that this is seen in >>The Marines Gallery<< along with the other photos of H.perlevis.
The long term hope is that people will browse the Project Gallery to learn, maybe add agreements and help lift Marines to their proper place in iSpot.
Thanks ðJ