nightfly's picture

4th June2009 023 (2)

Observed: 4th June 2009 By: nightflynightfly’s reputation in Invertebratesnightfly’s reputation in Invertebratesnightfly’s reputation in Invertebratesnightfly’s reputation in Invertebratesnightfly’s reputation in Invertebrates
4th June2009 023 (2)
4th June 2010 (7)
Description:
Identifications
Species interactions

No interactions present.

Comments

nightfly's picture

Probably closer to 2.5cm!

Probably closer to 2.5cm! Sorry. The majority of them are 2.5cm. A few are bigger.

Cathal.

nightfly's picture

Thanks for the confident ID

Thanks for the confident ID Inopinatus, and Chris too for the agreement. For several years I felt these flies were probably Phryganea striata (based on out of date IDing material) because they were uniformly smaller than Grandis and differently marked. Last night following this post, I had a quick look at Greenhalghs book.

I'm very pleased with the above ID, its was what I felt was closest last night. I think Greenhalgh states that striata and bipunctata are the same thing, striata being the old name, this is probably out of date, it differs from the info you gave me Inopinatus, on ther other thread about halesus.

Thanks, lunch time almost over,

Cathal.

inopinatus's picture

striata

That is probably correct. There is an Oligotricha striata also, but it was speculation on my part to suggest that it is a synonym of Phryganea striata - seemed plausible as both are in the same family, however I would go with what Malcolm Greenhalgh says!

nightfly's picture

Hi Inopinatus, I'm just

Hi Inopinatus,

I'm just having a look through older caddis observations, I have just viewed one in which a caddis which looks very clearly like (well what I think is) a P. grandis. The comments suggest that it isnt possible to tell grandis from bipunctata without looking at genitalia.

All I know is that I see 2 types of Phryganea, a very mottled greyish one(which include the largest caddis Ive ever seen) with considerable black marking and then the one which is brown, almost monotone and can be close to 3cm long but is much more commonly between 2 and 2.5cm.

The brown one, the one I believe to be bipunctata as above I see in vast numbers, large hatches both on small hill loughs and on large Irish limestone lakes. The mottled one which I think is probably grandis is only ever encountered in small numbers, one here and there in a year.

Just noticed again above, I am completely overlooking O. striata! What are your thoughts on differentiating between bipunctata and striata in the hand (or photo)?

Cathal.

inopinatus's picture

Oligotricha

Oligotricha is very different to Phryganea - being much smaller and almost black in its colouration. It would perhaps be worth collecting a couple of male specimens of your two different Phryganea - they are such large caddis that differences in genitalia might be visible under low magnification, such as a hand lens or magnifying glass.

nightfly's picture

Inopinatus, To my eye, for

Inopinatus,

To my eye, for what its worth? this looks like grandis on the left and bipunctata on the right, am I assuming far too much?

http://www.ispot.org.uk/node/54688

Cathal.

inopinatus's picture

I've looked into it and it is

I've looked into it and it is correct to say that there are no reliable differences between grandis and bipunctata without examining genitalia. I took the ID a step too far in this one.

nightfly's picture

Ok, I'll hopefully get to the

Ok, I'll hopefully get to the bottom of the 2 markedley different caddis that I encounter with investigation and inspection etc. I will have to wait until next May before I will see fresh examples.

Thanks once again.

Cathal.

nightfly's picture

At the same time it is

At the same time it is correct also to say that there are huge differences within these largest Phryganea, brand new freshly hatched Phryganea. One type I seldom see and only ever one at a time. The other I see thousands of and are impossible to mistake for the much larger 'solitary' individuals. For the time being I am going to keep my agreement above with your ID of bipunctata as I think you are correct based on the fact that this is not the largest Phryganea I encounter and specimens of it are invariably completely different from the largest Phryganea I see.

Will have to attempt to clarify it all next summer.

Cathal.

Ian Wallace's picture

The wing markins sem to work

The wing markins sem to work to separate the two species but I prefer the genitalia to be certain.

Ian Wallace, UK Trichoptera Recording Scheme

nightfly's picture

Ian, I have 3 specimens of

Ian,

I have 3 specimens of Phryganea which I hope to have properly IDed, 2 females and a male I think, going by the size. Can you tell me where I can send them for confirmation of the species please?

Also, should they be preserved in alcohol?

Thanks.

Cathal.